Lessons Learned in Taipei

[ShinChoc]

I'm going to keep this post short and sweet as possible, and maybe add on to it later. This first initial post will just detail my interactions with this one girl that I have been pursuing for the past couple of weeks.

 

I'm in Taipei for a month while my mainland China visa is being processed. Initially my main objective was to spend most of my time studying Chinese (to make my mainland China adventures more fruitful), but I've decided to also get an experience of the local women. Here's one of the women that I have been seeing the most often:

 

D1: Approached this Taiwanese girl at the bottom floor in front of the building I am staying in. Did an indirect "where is a good place to get food around here right now" opener. She happened to be going to eat by herself, so I joined her. She lives alone, in the building right next to mine, and she just finished school. We went to the nearby mall and ate, and talked, etc. I lied to her and told her that I am going to live and work in Taipei, because, in my past experiences, Asian women go cold on you when they find out that you are leaving their country soon. I managed to get her back to my place under the pretense of "studying Chinese". She was a little hesitant at first to come over to my place, but I told her that it is normal for people in my part of the country to invite people over, and I did a time-constraint of going walking afterwards. Anyway, once she was over I sat next to her and started slowly escalating as we were looking at stuff on my computer. She started becoming more open. I moved her to my room to show her my digital drawing table, and as we were sitting on my bed I started to escalate, but she got up and wanted to leave to go walking (like I had said we would after we were done studying Chinese), so we did that.

 

D2: This was the next day. We met for a morning exercise together, and then to an Indian restaurant for lunch (after exercise she went to her room to shower and do chores for a couple of hours before we met for lunch). During our exercise time I set some really good frames about my views of sex, and how I think it is strange how Asian guys want women to pretend to be innocent. After the Indian food I bounced her up to my room to "listen to music" and some other stuff that I don't remember right now. This time I got really far with the sexual escalation. I got her top off, and had her hands rubbing on my cock. She was very insistent that she "wasn't in the mood" and that we could do it "next time." I figured that since I had already gotten so far with her that I could afford to not keep pushing for sex, and that it would likely happen on our next encounters... She was actually surprised that I wasn't angry at her for denying me sex, which signaled to me that she's been in this situation before, with Asian guys getting really angry and continuing to push for sex anyway. Again, I thought that I would get brownie points by showing her that I valued her for more than sex. She told me that she was "kind of dating someone", and asked me if it makes her bad for being in bed with me while she is already in a relationship. She was tired, so we slept in my bed together, wrapped in each others arms. After she woke up I continued to try to escalate on her, but her mom was coming to visit her in a couple of hours, so she got up and I walked her downstairs.

 

D3,D4, etc.: Met in the morning for exercise, and then lunch. I told her about my mom's wedding and that we lived on a farm when I was younger, and that she should see photos of my mom's wedding. I'm leaving out some details here because they don't add to the report.

 

Yesterday/Last night: I was messaging her to sudden invite her to this music performance this attractive Japanese woman that I approached a couple of days beforehand invited me to, and before I could finish sending the message she messaged me saying that she was going ice-skating, and I ended up going ice-skating with her. I did lots of kino hand-holding with her while I was helping her keep her balance while skating. After about an hour of skating she was hungry, so we left. Here is where the resistance starts. She starts talking about how tired she is feeling, and how she wants to eat and go home and sleep. I knew she would get more energy after eating, and I told her so. We got on the MRT and went to Taipei 101, and I bought a Red Bull energy drink and had her drink it. After a long walk, we got to the mall area near our home and ate there at a pretty good restaurant. During our date I re-seeded the pictures of my mom's wedding, as well as seeing pictures of my room that my mom is renovating, and getting her opinion on them.

 

After eating I felt that she was trying to delay going back to our homes, as she kept pulling away from where I was leading her (we were holding hands at this point, as I was trying to make sure I had some kino established as I lead her home) to look at the performances that were happening in the mall area. She suggested that we go get drinks, and I agreed, thinking that maybe she wanted to maybe use alcohol as the reason that she was going to sleep with me. We went to the Brass Monkey bar and drunk 2 cocktails and 2 vodkas (totaling about 1034twd ). While sitting at the bar we talked and I escalated on her, kissing her neck, hand on her back, etc. I figured now was a perfect time to home-bounce her, but as I tried to lead her up to my apartment, she resisted, saying that she wanted to walk more. This is where our long discussion began... I asked her why she didn't want to come up to my home again, considering that she had already slept in my bed before, and she said that she was afraid the last time she came up with me. I tried to logically explain to her that we had already been intimate, and that her coming up to my home and staying the night with me wasn't such a big deal.

 

I'll spare you guys the rest of the details about our conversation, but we ended up in a secluded part the park nearby, with me trying to continue to persuade her to not be afraid of the sexual part of our relationship, and kissing her neck, and her resisting my words and kisses (but occasionally giving in to both). She brought up the guy that she was dating, and that they had sex the previous night, and that she wasn't in the mood today. She's actually mentioned him many times to me, but I didn't know that he was the one that she was in a relationship with. He's a Taiwanese guy who lived in America for most of his life and recently came back to Taiwan. Apparently he is the guy who gave her her first orgasm. He likes to smoke week a lot. She told me that she was "in love" with him, and that the previous night they told each other they wanted to be exclusive with each other. It became clear that I wasn't going to close her that night, so I went ahead and revealed to her that I am moving back to mainland China on the 18th, hoping that would push her to take the jump and enjoy me while she still can, but it didn't seem to have an effect. Anyway, we left the park with me trying to get her to come up to my home right then, and her saying "tomorrow", "I just want to go up to my room and take a shower", and even offering to meet with me the next day. I was noticeably pissed off, as I knew her offer of meeting the next day would likely end the same- with her not coming up to my room. She didn't want me to walk her to her door because the doorman may see us, and she's had her boyfriend over before so she doesn't want to get caught. I was so pissed off at her that I turned by back on her and waved her off as I pulled out my phone and started to walk away from her.

 

I later decided that I had acted rudely to her (honestly I was hoping in the back of my mind that my showing frustration at her would make her try to please me by giving into my wishes) and sent her a message asking her if she had gotten up to her room ok. She didn't respond, and I messaged her good night before I went to sleep, and she messaged me back saying goodnight. I messaged her this morning asking her if she slept good, but she hasn't responded yet. I'm still pretty pissed that I spent 2500twd on this girl and didn't close her, and I'm not sure what my next steps in the relationship should be. Any suggestions?

 

 

Lessons Learned

1. Don't take "I'm not in the mood" as an acceptable form of objection. Even if SHE wasn't in the mood, I still should have pulled my pants off and maybe gotten a blowjob from her.

2. Don't think that you will gain a woman's trust by "respecting her boundaries" and not pushing her to have sex with you, and thinking that you will get another chance in the future. This girl and I slept in the same bed together minutes after I had her topless, rubbing my cock, and I didn't continue to push for sex through her objections, and she STILL didn't trust me enough to come back up to my home for the 3rd time.

3. Go for sex as soon as possible, because something likely will get in the way. Her objections to having sex with me went from "I'm kind of dating this other guy" to "I'm in love with him" in less than two weeks. If I had a chance to have sex with her, it seems to have disappeared rather quickly.

4. If you can, try to avoid wearing a belt/or any kind of pants that require both hands to be undone. If I had been able to take off my pants quicker, I might have been able to sleep with her.

5. Be more persistent, and push past objections. There were many times last night where I could have given up and the night would have ended earlier than it did.

6. I think that I like bars now! The Brass Monkey was a pretty good date spot, and her and I had enough privacy sitting at the bar that I could escalate on her by kissing her neck without other people watching us.

7. When it comes to dating Asian women, use your money and your ability to buy things wisely and strategically. I blew about 2500twd on this girl last night, and I still didn't get laid, so I probably wasn't very strategic haha, but at least I learned a lot!

[Romeo]

Looks like you're already aware of what I think was your biggest blunder here: not closing her on the d2.

 

If you get a girl in a situation where sex could go down and it doesn't, she may (subconsciously or not) rationalize why she didn't end up having sex with you and justify it in her mind, which will make it harder for you to close her later. You had a logistically good closing situation and you should have continued moving it forward unless she was making a serious effort to stop you -- listen to girls' subcomms, not their words.

 

A frame I use when closing the girl is the Rake frame -- she's so sexy I can't control myself. I'll playfully blame the girl and tell her to stop. She'll ask stop what, and I'll say stop being so sexy, you're turning me on and I can't control myself, I don't think I can resist you. Or I'll tell her to stop distracting me from (whatever we're ostensibly doing while I escalate on her).

 

I'll alternate that with periods of backing off and resuming the activity with light kino, then saying something like "God, you are SO hot" and start kissing on her neck again, acting like I can't resist and have no choice but to do so.

 

Once I d-move the girl, I'll give her a look that's kind of hard to describe. It's kind of a mix of 1) I'm completely overcome by lust and I NEED this right now, like I'm a heroine addict getting his fix and 2) almost like I'm pleading with them to stop turning me on, like I'm some pathetic creature who has zero self control, and I don't even really want to be doing this right now but I have no choice because of what the girl is doing to me.

 

I find this turns girls on a LOT to be desired in that way, and it's allowed me to close a lot of girls recently even in high LMR situations where I thought it wasn't going to go down.

 

It's awesome on a lot of levels -- one because it naturally mixes in push pull into your close (whereas if you're all push the girl might freak out). It also flips the script and makes it so the girl is the one seducing you, not the other way around. So now she's an active participant in the closing process -- it's not that you're trying to manipulate her into having sex with you, it's that you're both sharing this experience of being overcome by each other and things just kind of happening. Thirdly it triggers a natural need all girls have, to be desired strongly by a man, so it turns them on a lot despite what their logical brain is telling them.

 

A couple other points on your FR:

 

- Being mad / upset with the girl will almost never serve the purpose you hope it will.

 

- How long were you together on the d1 before trying to close her? Seems like it was probably too fast. Usually I need to be with the girl for a minimum of 3-4 hours for the close to feel natural to her and not awkward.

 

In Korea at least, trying to close too early can blow you out with the girl and she won't meet you again -- see my note above on girls post-rationalizing why they didn't have sex with you.

 

Sent from my SM-N920S using Tapatalk

[ShinChoc]

Thanks for the very detailed reply Romeo!

 

My memory of all that we did on the Day 1 has faded some, but I would say we spent maybe a little less than 1.5 hours together before I home bounced her, and that I started doing physical escalation right above the 2 hour mark. I suppose the mindset that I have in these kinds of situations is "get her to my home as soon as possible before something/someone interrupts us", rather than trying to make sure that all of the dominoes are lined up 100% to increase my chances of actually getting sex.

 

And, yea, it was foolish of me to show my anger at her, if even for a few minutes. I'm generally very good at keeping a positive attitude with women (my "positive attitude" is one of the reasons this girl brought up for liking being around me), so last night was very out of character for me. It won't happen again!

 

I'm definitely going to utilize the "Rake frame", as my close rate is very low compared to the rather high number of women that I've actually been able to home bounce in the past year. I DEFINITELY need to utilize the D-Move more (I often forget it for some reason, as I think that I am too focused on turning the woman on and getting HER clothes off, rather than my own).

 

Thoughts on Failing to Close: For this girl, she was too fearful to come back up to my place after I got so far with her and failed to go all the way, but I've actually had many occasions in the mainland China where I failed to fully close a woman, and she STILL came back up to my home multiple times (and even after I continued to fail to successfully close her!). Mainland China girls and Taiwan girls are very different!

[RedpoleQ]

I lied to her and told her that I am going to live and work in Taipei, because, in my past experiences, Asian women go cold on you when they find out that you are leaving their country soon.

Totally depends on how you're running your sarge. If you're coming across with lots of relationship value and not much adventure value, this is true. You have to run your sarges quite differently on the road than in a place where you live where the girl can get long term value from being with you.

 

She was a little hesitant at first to come over to my place, but I told her that it is normal for people in my part of the country to invite people over, and I did a time-constraint of going walking afterwards.

Time constraint is good, but I don't think setting that "this is the American way" frame is all that great. The reason why you had some trouble is likely because you tried to bounce her back with something that involves her giving value and not getting value. Why would she even want to spend time teaching you Chinese? Do you like it when girls want to meet you to learn English? I don't.

 

During our exercise time I set some really good frames about my views of sex, and how I think it is strange how Asian guys want women to pretend to be innocent.

Excellent!

 

I got her top off, and had her hands rubbing on my cock. She was very insistent that she "wasn't in the mood" and that we could do it "next time." I figured that since I had already gotten so far with her that I could afford to not keep pushing for sex, and that it would likely happen on our next encounters...

Almost never happens. If you get this far and don't close, you'll almost never get another chance....unless you ask her to be your girlfriend. I've never tried it myself, but it seems like it works pretty consistently for Asian guys.

 

She told me that she was "kind of dating someone", and asked me if it makes her bad for being in bed with me while she is already in a relationship.

What was your response to this?

 

Anyway, we left the park with me trying to get her to come up to my home right then, and her saying "tomorrow", "I just want to go up to my room and take a shower", and even offering to meet with me the next day. I was noticeably pissed off, as I knew her offer of meeting the next day would likely end the same- with her not coming up to my room. She didn't want me to walk her to her door because the doorman may see us, and she's had her boyfriend over before so she doesn't want to get caught. I was so pissed off at her that I turned by back on her and waved her off as I pulled out my phone and started to walk away from her.

Being angry doesn't help at all. And it clouds your ability to think strategically. But also, this is really partly your fault for not pushing when you had the chance. You got her all juiced up and then left her for the other guy to eat up the mess. Don't get me wrong, I've done this plenty of times. PLENTY!

 

It's definitely a special skill to keep pushing for sex in a way that you make her want to do it.

 

I was hoping in the back of my mind that my showing frustration at her would make her try to please me by giving into my wishes

Punishing people usually leads to them resenting you and wanting to create distance unless they feel massive amounts of indebtedness towards you which usually takes a looooooong time to create.

 

Don't take "I'm not in the mood" as an acceptable form of objection. Even if SHE wasn't in the mood, I still should have pulled my pants off and maybe gotten a blowjob from her.

This is the wrong attitude. The right attitude is that you want to put her in the mood. Not focus on extracting pleasure...focus on GIVING pleasure. Now it may be that this girl doesn't really enjoy sex in the first place and only does it because the guy wants to. This means that she uses sex as a tool to get other things.

 

This is fine, as long as she genuinely likes and is interested in sex because under those circumstances, if you can get her turned on and communicate how much she's going to get out of having sex with you, you can often get them to want to try.

 

Don't think that you will gain a woman's trust by "respecting her boundaries" and not pushing her to have sex with you, and thinking that you will get another chance in the future. This girl and I slept in the same bed together minutes after I had her topless, rubbing my cock, and I didn't continue to push for sex through her objections, and she STILL didn't trust me enough to come back up to my home for the 3rd time.

This is not a trust issue. This is her not wanting to put herself in an awkward situation. She's smart enough to know that if she goes up with you you'll try to have sex with her. So, why should she go back to your place?

 

This is EXACTLY why it's so important to go for the close full on when you have the chance. You'll rarely get a second because she has her guard up much higher.

 

I DEFINITELY need to utilize the D-Move more (I often forget it for some reason, as I think that I am too focused on turning the woman on and getting HER clothes off, rather than my own).

There should be a matching escalation in nakedness. People feel vulnerable with their clothes off, so by taking you clothes off too, it makes girls feel more comfortable. I know of some guys who's strategy is to take ALL of their clothes off first. I think that can be a bit too shocking for girls, but I can see it working too if you can hold your frame well enough.

 

I've actually had many occasions in the mainland China where I failed to fully close a woman, and she STILL came back up to my home multiple times (and even after I continued to fail to successfully close her!). Mainland China girls and Taiwan girls are very different!

Actually, not being able to close Taiwanese girls on the fist attempt and then getting a second try is not that uncommon. I've had it happen to me any number of times, actually.

 

I think that with enough comfort, it can work, but you really never know.

 

A frame I use when closing the girl is the Rake frame

ABSOLUTELY!